| About Natalee and her mother: by Renee Gielen - Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 ... 14, 15, 16 ... 38, 39, 40 Next |
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iquitos
 Posted:
Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:00 am |
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| all10suspects wrote: |
The 17 year olds on the trip did what ever Joran did. So I guess nobody
did anything wrong! |
please tell us what is wrong with playing in a texas hold'em tournament miss perfect.
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beady eyed rat
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 15066
Location: nowhere man
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| henk
Posted:
Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:06 am |
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Linda, let me ask you a question now..
If you are from L.A. then perhaps you were in Las Vegas in the casino's.. I was there just after the Nevada smoking low.. I believe it was Nov. 2005.. I was there in Jan. 2006 and what I found very strange is that you could not smoke in casino restaurant anymore, but on the other side of the fence, sitting on a chair gambling.. It was allowed to smoke..
So.. they are also making there own laws, or do not obey..
Just wondering how you think about that..
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Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 813
Location: nederland
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| all10suspects
Posted:
Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:06 am |
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| iquitos wrote: |
please tell us what is wrong with playing in a texas hold'em tournament miss perfect. |
According to Aruban law nobody did anything wrong! Yet we still
have a suspect!
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 6356
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| GBMW
Posted:
Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:30 am |
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| Linda in L.A. wrote: | Henk...I suppose I'm just not use to the way of life anywhere else...that's true. But if what you say is true (and I do believe you) it makes me wonder then why the laws are written? That would make it harder in my opinion to live in the Netherlands.
You are told its illegal to do this...but then they look the other way if you do it. So do they ever enforce those laws. Please don't take this as criticism, its a comment only. And I'm only talking about the same laws you discussed (drinking under age, gambling). Obviously, the Netherlands enforce other laws. |
It's not that those laws don't mean anything....and IMO those things are pretty much under control (drinking under age / gambling). It's not like 10 year olds can get a beer at the pub or that there are many under age walking around in the casino's here.
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Joined: 20 Feb 2008
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| Bongo
Posted:
Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:55 am |
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| all10suspects wrote: |
According to Aruban law nobody did anything wrong! Yet we still
have a suspect! |
Aha!
Apparently in your legal system the 'logic' is as follows:
a 'suspect' = equal to 'someone who did something wrong' = equal to 'guilt'.
Am I right?
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Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 1153
Location: The Netherlands
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| resigned
Posted:
Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:08 am |
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| Bongo wrote: |
Aha!
Apparently in your legal system the 'logic' is as follows:
a 'suspect' = equal to 'someone who did something wrong' = equal to 'guilt'.
Am I right? |
Depends on what the circumstances and stories are surrounding the suspect. Don't the Dutch do the same - form opinions based on what knowledge they gather/learn about suspects?
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Click your heels together...
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
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Location: "Onboard" pathenry's desk
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| Gregor
Posted:
Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:10 am |
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| Bongo wrote: |
Aha!
Apparently in your legal system the 'logic' is as follows:
a 'suspect' = equal to 'someone who did something wrong' = equal to 'guilt'.
Am I right? |
Not in our legal system. Just in her mind, and the minds of a few others, and then, just in certain cases.
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| minitess
Posted:
Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:17 am |
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| resigned wrote: |
Depends on what the circumstances and stories are surrounding the suspect. Don't the Dutch do the same - form opinions based on what knowledge they gather/learn about suspects? |
And then they go one step further.
They take that person in for "pre-trial detention", and all that is required for that is "reasonable suspicion".
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| sarge
Posted:
Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:43 am |
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Sometimes the wrong people are taken in for detention giving the real suspects time to get rid of evidence.
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Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| liesbeth
Posted:
Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:23 am |
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[ 
Last edited by liesbeth on Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
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| GBMW
Posted:
Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:25 am |
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| resigned wrote: |
Depends on what the circumstances and stories are surrounding the suspect. Don't the Dutch do the same - form opinions based on what knowledge they gather/learn about suspects? |
Some people don't get what an opinion is and means.
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| luvslalom
Posted:
Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:36 am |
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| henk wrote: | Linda, let me ask you a question now..
If you are from L.A. then perhaps you were in Las Vegas in the casino's.. I was there just after the Nevada smoking low.. I believe it was Nov. 2005.. I was there in Jan. 2006 and what I found very strange is that you could not smoke in casino restaurant anymore, but on the other side of the fence, sitting on a chair gambling.. It was allowed to smoke..
So.. they are also making there own laws, or do not obey..
Just wondering how you think about that.. |
From my experience in Las Vegas, I found them rather strict in adhering to laws, especially age-wise.
I don't get that impression at all from Aruba. Just my opinion how I saw things. 
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Location: hamster...damn
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| Linda in L.A.
Posted:
Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:12 am |
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| henk wrote: | Linda, let me ask you a question now..
If you are from L.A. then perhaps you were in Las Vegas in the casino's.. I was there just after the Nevada smoking low.. I believe it was Nov. 2005.. I was there in Jan. 2006 and what I found very strange is that you could not smoke in casino restaurant anymore, but on the other side of the fence, sitting on a chair gambling.. It was allowed to smoke..
So.. they are also making there own laws, or do not obey..
Just wondering how you think about that.. |
Sorry henk...didn't mean to ignore...had a family emergency today. I'll agree the smoking laws here are odd...but hey are enforced (as far as I can see) with the way they are written. The fact that the same smoke is there on the other side of the fence is bad...but it still gives people the choice where they want to go to gamble. Anyways...that's not the real issue here.
Mainly I was confused by your post about being a good/bad parent if you do/don't encourage your child to follow the law. Certainly I'm not going to say no parent in the US has looked the other way to their teenager drinking or gambling. But those same parents will be held accountable like was mentioned here. May not make sense...but it lets the parents know there will be accountability.
The point I was making was that it would make it hard for me to really know which laws in the Netherlands I should obey and which were ok to ignore. For instance...when are the same laws enforced? Is it if a person is caught breaking the law or is it if there is another problem at the same time? I'm pretty much talking about the drinking/gambling here.
Based on the way you represented legal life in the Netherlands, I can see where Joran and his family believe they broke no laws. What I'm still not understanding though is if there is such a lax interpretation of those law, why is it Natalee has been so attacked (not saying by you) for doing the same? Its true that she was from the US where those things are illegal, but she was in Aruba at the time and was of legal age to be drinking and gambling.
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| Linda in L.A.
Posted:
Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:19 am |
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| henk wrote: |
Linda, I think you would love it in the Netherlands.. It's just that most Dutch have a hard time when other people tell you what you can and cannot do.. And I'm not talking about big thinks, like real criminal things..
But the small things (to us).. Smoking, drinking, gambling, going to hookers or be a hooker..
And yeh.. when the government finds out that we do not obey.. they look the other way and call it "gedoog beleid".
Look at it this way.. If your neighbour would tell you how to deal with your children, you would say.. mind your own business.. That's about the way we feel if the government comes with a law, a lot of people do not agree with.. |
Wowieee henk...lol...just read this. Actually...I wouldn't love living in the Netherlands...not judging...just that I'm one of those people that when a new law comes out...I adhere to it...lol. Won't say I've been like that my entire life (and don't think I'll go there...lol)...but I'll say since I became an adult...I'm much stricter on that.
I think comparing your neighbor and government is like comparing apples and oranges. You are 100% right. My neighbor could tell me all they want what I should and shouldn't do...wouldn't make any difference to me at all. Government...hmmm...that's a whole different issue, but could also be because my profession is in the legal field.
I will agree with one thing on the boards...it is not up to one country to tell another country what their laws should or shouldn't be. I may not like a country's laws...and I have every right to say that...but it doesn't mean they need to listen or defend their laws.
Thanks for the discussion henk...its appreciated.
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 493
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| GBMW
Posted:
Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:54 am |
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| Linda in L.A. wrote: |
Sorry henk...didn't mean to ignore...had a family emergency today. I'll agree the smoking laws here are odd...but hey are enforced (as far as I can see) with the way they are written. The fact that the same smoke is there on the other side of the fence is bad...but it still gives people the choice where they want to go to gamble. Anyways...that's not the real issue here.
Mainly I was confused by your post about being a good/bad parent if you do/don't encourage your child to follow the law. Certainly I'm not going to say no parent in the US has looked the other way to their teenager drinking or gambling. But those same parents will be held accountable like was mentioned here. May not make sense...but it lets the parents know there will be accountability.
The point I was making was that it would make it hard for me to really know which laws in the Netherlands I should obey and which were ok to ignore. For instance...when are the same laws enforced? Is it if a person is caught breaking the law or is it if there is another problem at the same time? I'm pretty much talking about the drinking/gambling here.
Based on the way you represented legal life in the Netherlands, I can see where Joran and his family believe they broke no laws. What I'm still not understanding though is if there is such a lax interpretation of those law, why is it Natalee has been so attacked (not saying by you) for doing the same? Its true that she was from the US where those things are illegal, but she was in Aruba at the time and was of legal age to be drinking and gambling. |
I think those kind of comments come from different origins: narrowminded people / people that want to talk about the way Beth represented Natalee / blame the victim...etc. It's just an argument used in a discussion. Why would people Natalee attack on that? Because those people have lost track of what's really important or they were just trying to discuss their point of view in a thread about a certain subject.
And IMO laws etc aren't that loosely interpretated here by parents / clubs / Holland Casino. Parents can be flexible but the establishments have their responsibility and they generally take it...if they don't: government / police will deal with it.
Aruba seems to be less strict & certainly have a different gambling thing going on...but the VD Sloots knew what they were doing and what was legal / illegal.
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| Bongo
Posted:
Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:57 am |
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| Linda in L.A. wrote: |
Wowieee henk...lol...just read this. Actually...I wouldn't love living in the Netherlands...not judging...just that I'm one of those people that when a new law comes out...I adhere to it...lol. Won't say I've been like that my entire life (and don't think I'll go there...lol)...but I'll say since I became an adult...I'm much stricter on that.
I think comparing your neighbor and government is like comparing apples and oranges. You are 100% right. My neighbor could tell me all they want what I should and shouldn't do...wouldn't make any difference to me at all. Government...hmmm...that's a whole different issue, but could also be because my profession is in the legal field.
I will agree with one thing on the boards...it is not up to one country to tell another country what their laws should or shouldn't be. I may not like a country's laws...and I have every right to say that...but it doesn't mean they need to listen or defend their laws.
Thanks for the discussion henk...its appreciated. |
@ Linda in LA and Henk: you both thank you for this discussion. Such a relief to once in a while read a not-childish-discussion like there are so many here..
 BOTH OF YOU!!
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Joined: 29 Mar 2008
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Location: The Netherlands
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| GBMW
Posted:
Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:13 am |
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| Bongo wrote: |
@ Linda in LA and Henk: you both thank you for this discussion. Such a relief to once in a while read a not-childish-discussion like there are so many here..
BOTH OF YOU!! |
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| johan555
Posted:
Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:51 am |
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| GBMW wrote: |
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oud wijf die bongo
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Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Location: Amsterdam
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| Bongo
Posted:
Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:14 am |
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| johan555 wrote: |
oud wijf die bongo |
English please?
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Joined: 29 Mar 2008
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Location: The Netherlands
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| Gregor
Posted:
Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:42 am |
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| Linda in L.A. wrote: |
<SNIP>
What I'm still not understanding though is if there is such a lax interpretation of those law, why is it Natalee has been so attacked (not saying by you) for doing the same? Its true that she was from the US where those things are illegal, but she was in Aruba at the time and was of legal age to be drinking and gambling. |
I don't think anyone attacked Natalee for drinking, although some are critical of her drinking to excess. I think it's a valid criticism.
Likewise, the MB parents have been criticized for sending their kids where they could do things they couldn't legally do at home. Since these kids did not have the experience to determine what constitutes drinking and gambling responsibly, I again have to agree it's a valid criticism.
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| all10suspects
Posted:
Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:10 am |
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| Gregor wrote: |
I don't think anyone attacked Natalee for drinking, although some are critical of her drinking to excess. I think it's a valid criticism.
Likewise, the MB parents have been criticized for sending their kids where they could do things they couldn't legally do at home. Since these kids did not have the experience to determine what constitutes drinking and gambling responsibly, I again have to agree it's a valid criticism. |
The school made 2 trips before to Aruba without a problem. The only thing different that happened this time is that Joran meet the MB girls
at a casino.
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Gregor
Posted:
Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:30 am |
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| all10suspects wrote: |
The school made 2 trips before to Aruba without a problem. The only thing different that happened this time is that Joran meet the MB girls
at a casino. |
Many people who have been killed in auto accidents had drive hundreds of thousands of miles previously without a problem.
Many airplanes that have crashed have flown hundreds of times previously without a problem.
According to Joran himself, he picked up at least 20 tourists previously without a problem.
The problem really seems to have been Natalee, not Joran.
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| all10suspects
Posted:
Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:47 am |
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| Gregor wrote: |
Many people who have been killed in auto accidents had drive hundreds of thousands of miles previously without a problem.
Many airplanes that have crashed have flown hundreds of times previously without a problem.
According to Joran himself, he picked up at least 20 tourists previously without a problem.
The problem really seems to have been Natalee, not Joran. |
Its like when you use the same play over and over in sports.
One time it may not work. That is what happen with Joran. Joran
picked the wrong girl who did not surive his game!
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| GBMW
Posted:
Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:55 am |
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| Gregor wrote: |
Many people who have been killed in auto accidents had drive hundreds of thousands of miles previously without a problem.
Many airplanes that have crashed have flown hundreds of times previously without a problem.
According to Joran himself, he picked up at least 20 tourists previously without a problem.
The problem really seems to have been Natalee, not Joran. |
The fact it seems he didn't get help shows a reasonable doubt the problem might not only have been Natalee.
Besides that; it's beyond words to treat a human being and her loved ones like he did.
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Joined: 20 Feb 2008
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| Gregor
Posted:
Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:13 am |
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| GBMW wrote: |
The fact it seems he didn't get help shows a reasonable doubt the problem might not only have been Natalee.
Besides that; it's beyond words to treat a human being and her loved ones like he did. |
What kind of help did he need?
You have no idea how he treated Natalee, and as to how he treated her family, he offered to talk with them, but they refused.
It would appear the problem is with the family, not Joran.
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