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| TOP 32 PRESENT DAY NFL QUATERBACK RANKINGS - |
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Need2Know
 Posted:
Tue May 22, 2007 12:27 pm |
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TOP 32 PRESENT DAY NFL QUATERBACK RANKINGS
From Andrew Perloff at SI: (pax or any other football dudes, what do you think of this ranking?)
Like all great sports arguments, this debate began at a bar, with a number of SI.com colleagues earlier this week. The challenge: rank the 32 projected starting quarterbacks. The criteria: how will they perform in 2007, factoring intangibles such as winning and leadership along with statistics. Marc Bulger may have better numbers than Tom Brady, but that doesn't make Bulger more valuable.
After No. 5, this gets very difficult, but if you disagree with any of my rankings, I'll gladly set you straight in a FanNation Throwdown at any time.
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Carson Palmer
Drew Brees
Philip Rivers
Donovan McNabb
Ben Roethlisberger
Marc Bulger
Matt Hasselbeck
Michael Vick
Tony Romo
Matt Leinart
Jay Cutler
Vince Young
Brett Favre
Steve McNair
Alex Smith
Jeff Garcia
Jake Delhomme
Chad Pennington
Jon Kitna
Eli Manning
Damon Huard
Trent Green (assuming he's a Dolphin)
Jason Campbell
Rex Grossman
Byron Leftwich
J.P. Losman
Matt Schaub
Josh McCown
Tarvaris Jackson
Charlie Frye
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8903
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| pax
Posted:
Tue May 22, 2007 2:39 pm |
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Re: TOP 32 PRESENT DAY NFL QUATERBACK RANKINGS
Hi N2K! Here's some comments:
Peyton Manning -- Absolutely.
Tom Brady -- No doubt.
Carson Palmer -- Great, but team appears dysfunctional.
Drew Brees -- Rooting for him, perhaps would place him higher than Palmer.
Philip Rivers -- New coaches should let him rip.
Donovan McNabb -- Like him a lot but his best days may be behind him.
Ben Roethlisberger -- I'd put him a few spots lower. Don't know if he'll recover from last year's horrendous season.
Marc Bulger
Matt Hasselbeck -- Confident and smart, like him.
Michael Vick -- Would love to see him improve his passing and not get injured.
Tony Romo -- A big question mark. Needs support of teammates. I'd put him lower. Doubt he'll ever hold another extra point attempt, so that should help, lol.
Matt Leinart -- Should have a great year.
Jay Cutler -- Shanahan (superb coach) likes him.
Vince Young -- Should have a monster year; I'd put him a few spots higher.
Brett Favre -- I love how Green Bay fans support him but I'd place him lower.
Steve McNair -- He faded at end of season and probably will again. Still, one of the best guys in NFL so I'd place him higher.
Alex Smith
Jeff Garcia -- Maybe a few slots higher, he's got lots of experience.
Jake Delhomme
Chad Pennington -- Has a great arm; wonder about his decision-making.
Jon Kitna
Eli Manning -- Will probably reduce his mistakes and land higher.
Damon Huard
Trent Green (assuming he's a Dolphin) -- What do you think, N2K? He's good. Dolphins still rely mostly on defense and running game.
Jason Campbell
Rex Grossman -- More power to him; he was on a title team.
Byron Leftwich
J.P. Losman
Matt Schaub
Josh McCown
Tarvaris Jackson
Charlie Frye[/quote]
After the top five or six, the quality drops off considerably. It's such a team sport, and a team can do quite well without a star quarterback (see Bears). Leadership skills, inspiring confidence from teammates, and preventing costly mistakes are significant.
Let's hear from more football fans!
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 16074
Location: Wish You Were Here
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Tue May 22, 2007 2:47 pm |
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I think Green would be a good fit for the Dolphins. You are definetely right about the team aspect BUT a good, solid and smart quaterback does make a big difference. Defense cannot win games for you and if the quaterback is not reliable and a motivator, the offense can and will suffer. If you do not have a solid quaterback, all other offensive players need to be firing on all cylinders.
Like you say, after the first five or six, the list becomes a bit questionable. To me, Vick does not deserve to be that high; he has potential but has not proven his worth$$$$$; many of the others are unproven and some others have had some problems with consistency. I think Brady deserves to be at the top and Peyton second.
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8903
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| pax
Posted:
Tue May 22, 2007 4:59 pm |
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I'd have put Brady ahead of Manning before last season. Considering last year's playoffs and going into next season I think it's Manning. They are the greatest of this generation.
Vick is fascinating, controversial. I'd like to see him play an entire season without injury. I think he has been worth the money. He's electrifying and has earned the owners a ton of moolah. Merchandising, big tv games, ticket sales.
Agree regarding quarterbacks. Would love to see Green do well in Miami.
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| SavannahStar
Posted:
Fri May 25, 2007 7:12 am |
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Don't even get me started on Michael Vick.   
I know this really belongs more on the Animals forum, but......personally I think the guy should get a ten-year prison sentence for animal abuse.
Supporting Vick
Skins Portis, Samuels ridicule dog fighting as crime
Posted: Tuesday May 22, 2007 12:49AM; Updated: Tuesday May 22, 2007 12:53AM
NORFOLK, Va. (AP) -- Washington Redskins players Clinton Portis and Chris Samuels defended Michael Vick on Monday by ridiculing the notion that dog fighting is considered a crime.
In an interview with WAVY-TV, Portis said that if the Atlanta Falcons quarterback is charged and convicted of being involved in a dog fighting operation, then authorities would be "putting him behind bars for no reason."
"I don't know if he was fighting dogs or not," Portis said. "But it's his property; it's his dogs. If that's what he wants to do, do it."
Portis said dog fighting is a "prevalent" part of life.
Portis, a native of Laurel, Mississippi, added: "I know a lot of back roads that got a dog fight if you want to go see it. But they're not bothering those people because those people are not big names. I'm sure there's some police got some dogs that are fighting them, some judges got dogs and everything else."
"Politicians," added Samuels, who found it hard to keep from giggling while Portis was talking.
"Presidents," added Portis with a laugh.
Vick has been under investigation since April 25 when police conducting a drug investigation raided the house owned by the quarterback in rural Surry County and found dozens of dogs. They also found items associated with dog fighting, including a "pry bar" used to pry apart a dog's jaws. No charges have been filed.
Dog fighting is a felony in Virginia, but Portis said that if Vick is charged and convicted, "Then I think he got cheated. ... You're putting him behind bars for no reason -- over a dog fight."
"Haven't you seen Animal Planet?" Samuels added with a giggle.
Hours after making light of the possible crime in the television interview, Portis issued a statement late Monday through the Redskins.
"In the recent interview I gave concerning dog fighting, I want to make it clear I do not take part in dog fighting or condone dog fighting in any manner," the statement said.
Find this article at:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/05/22/bc.fbn.vickinvestigatio.ap/index.html?cnn=yes
I hate Michael Vick and monsters like him that do this to dogs!!!!!! It really IS animal abuse......most of these beautiful dogs end up dead or maimed for life. I'm for HARSH punishment of anyone involved in dog fighting. (Did you know that some of these dogs are fed METH to make them angry and aggressive????   )
Sorry for the rant on your thread, guys. This is a subject so near and dear to my heart. I own a beautiful pitbull and my heart breaks for pits that are abused in this way.
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**SuperStar**
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 20841
Location: Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Fri May 25, 2007 8:37 am |
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No problem Superstar  I agree, animal abuse is reprehensible and people that take pleasure at seeing any animal fight to the death have some serious unresolved issues that they, I am sure, will claim they do not have.
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8903
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| pax
Posted:
Fri May 25, 2007 10:01 pm |
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Thanks Savannah. Dog-fighting is horrendous.
To the bottom of the list for Vick!
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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Location: Wish You Were Here
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| SavannahStar
Posted:
Tue May 29, 2007 3:02 pm |
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Not for the faint of heart.......this makes me want to vomit! 
I am so so so so so sad over this case. I'd like to see Michael Vick put in jail for YEARS.
If you go to the article, there are photos: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/05/29/vick0604/index.html
The House on Moonlight Road
Though Michael Vick insists he knew nothing of alleged dogfighting on a Virginia property he owned, the case has cast a shadow over the star quarterback, alarmed the NFL and called attention to pro athletes' involvement in the grisly pastime
Posted: Tuesday May 29, 2007 9:22AM; Updated: Tuesday May 29, 2007 12:51PM
Vick has been under media scrutiny for much of the off-season; now the NFL is taking an active interest in the dogfighting issue.
Walter Iooss Jr./SI
By George Dohrmann
The brick house Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick owned on Moonlight Road in rural Smithfield, Va., is painted white. It has a white door, a white fence and a huge white gate that opens on a spare front lawn holding a white birdbath. In the woods behind the house, out of view from the road, stand five smaller buildings. These are painted black -- not gray or charcoal, but pure black, as if they'd been dipped in ink. They are set off from the house by a fence, also painted black.
Kathy Strouse, an animal control officer, was standing in front of those outbuildings as night fell on April 25 when a simple question came to her: Why the black paint? A moment passed before Strouse had an answer. At night, when most dogfights are held, no one would know these buildings were here.
Strouse, 54, is a member of the Virginia Animal Fighting Task Force, a consortium of animal control and law enforcement officials from around the state. She serves as an expert witness in dogfighting trials and teaches investigative tactics to animal control officers nationwide. As she and officers from the Surry County sheriff's office probed each of the back buildings and the rest of the 15-acre property that night, she saw what she considers unmistakable evidence of a professional dogfighting operation.
In one building a scale hung from the ceiling. There were treadmills to exercise the animals and a "rape stand," a contraption that holds aggressive dogs in place during breeding. In other buildings Strouse found syringes as well as injectable diuretics and nutritional supplements commonly given to fighting dogs. Stuck in the ground between two buildings was a metal shaft with a tethering arm, designed to keep a dog walking in a circle. Like the treadmill, this setup can be used as part of what dogfighters call the "keep," the training regimen before a fight.
A long building held numerous kennels, each of which contained at least one dog. Most were American pit bull terriers. Some had wounds on their ears, necks and front legs. Contrary to early reports, those 30 or so dogs were not emaciated, nor were the roughly 30 pit bulls found in the woods, tied to car axles buried in the ground. "Give the dogfighter his due," Strouse says. "It is not in his interest to starve his dogs."
One animal control officer surmises that the rear buildings at the Smithfield compound were painted to hide them at night.
Mort Fryman/The Virginian-Pilot/AP
It was clear to Strouse, who has been an animal control officer for 22 years, that some of the animals had been used in fights, but not until she climbed a stepladder to the second story of the largest of the black buildings was she convinced that fights had been staged on the property. In a room about 16 feet square Strouse found blood: a smear on one wall, splashes near the base of walls, a spattering on a jacket hanging from an air conditioner. She also found a dog tooth on a bucket. Yet the most convincing evidence that this was the "pit" -- the dogfighting arena -- was the rectangular area in the middle of the room devoid of blood. "Dogfighters put down carpet to give their dogs traction," Strouse says.
Investigators would eventually find a bloodstained carpet elsewhere on the property, and later Strouse would proclaim to a friend, "We got him. We got Michael Vick."
But neither the case, nor Vick's connection to it, is so clear-cut. Since the raid, Vick, 26, has proclaimed his innocence and blamed family members who lived in the house for what was found there. "It's unfortunate I have to take the heat," he said to reporters in New York City on April 27, a day before the NFL draft. "Lesson learned for me."
As of Monday, Surry County commonwealth's attorney Gerald Poindexter had not filed animal-welfare charges against anyone in the case, including Vick and his cousin, 26-year-old Davon Boddie, whose arrest on suspicion of drug possession sparked the raid. (Boddie gave police the Moonlight Road address as his place of residence; when searching the property they found probable cause to seek a second warrant involving animal cruelty.)
Poindexter has said he's convinced dogfighting took place on Moonlight Road but also that he hasn't yet found enough evidence to charge anyone. He said he has no eyewitnesses to fights there and noted that as many as 10 people might have had access to the property. Two schools of thought have thus emerged based on the information uncovered so far: Vick is either, as some in the animal welfare community believe, the financier of a large dogfighting operation and an aficionado of that blood sport, or, he is, as he said, a victim of poor choices made by those around him.
A source close to Vick with links to the NFL told SI last week that those two characterizations oversimplify the situation. "Mike really loves dogs," said the source, who asked not to be named. "It's the country side of him coming out. He doesn't believe he's doing anything wrong. It's a cultural thing for him that got worse as he got the means to support his friends who are more into [dogfighting] than him.... He's heavily influenced by a dogfighting culture that travels to Baltimore, [Washington] D.C. and Virginia for fights." The source also said that Vick was frequently at the Moonlight Road house in past off-seasons.
Two other Vick associates told SI.com's Don Banks that the quarterback knew about the dogfighting at the house on Moonlight Road and cited his "affinity" for the dogfighting subculture. On Sunday, ESPN's Outside the Lines aired an interview with a confidential source who said he personally saw Vick gambling on his own dog at a fight in 2000 and that Vick was "one of the heavyweights" of the dogfighting world.
Vick has declined further comment, citing the advice of his attorney, Larry Woodward, who did not respond to messages left by SI. In his comments after the allegations arose, Vick said, "It's a call for me to really tighten down on who I'm trying to take care of. When it all boils down, people will try to take advantage of you and leave you out to dry."
Accused athletes often claim they're targets of smear campaigns. In this case Vick indeed seems a marked man. To Strouse and others, including officials from the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS), who have seen dogfighting grow into what they call a multimillion-dollar industry with its own magazines, underground highlight DVDs and even music (videos by rappers such as DMX and Jay-Z pay homage to the sport), seeing Vick implicated in a dogfighting case would be like landing the great white whale. They've been building a case against Vick in the press and have forwarded material to Surry County law enforcement to help the investigation. Their motives are twofold: They believe Vick was involved, claiming they've heard from informants for years that he was into dogfighting. And, perhaps more important, an indictment filed against one of the NFL's signature stars would boost their broader efforts to combat the grisly pastime of dogfighting, which is a felony in every state but Idaho and Wyoming (where it is a misdemeanor).
"There exists a dogfighting subculture in the NFL and NBA," says Wayne Pacelle, president of the HSUS. "And to have an athlete of [Vick's] stature charged would be an enormous wake-up call to everyone in professional sports who has dabbled in or dived into the underworld of dogfighting."
After his drug arrest, Boddie (above) told police he lived at Moonlight Road.
Hampton Police Division
Dogfighting cases are often difficult to prove and are largely built on circumstantial evidence, says Mark Kumpf, an expert who has testified in several high-profile trials. When Poindexter met with investigators on May 21, the bulk of the evidence he reviewed was likely what was seized during the raid -- the rape stand, the "break stick" used to pry open a dog's jaws, the "keep" schedule written on the wall of one building. According to a search warrant executed on the Moonlight Road property, three envelopes addressed to "M. Vick" were also seized.
After the raid, authorities discovered that VicksK9Kennels.com, which offered pit bulls and presa canarios for sale, listed an address on Moonlight Road and was registered to one of Vick's companies, MV7 LLC. (The site has since shut down, and Vick put the Moonlight Road property up for sale.) The transport of dogs across state lines for the purposes of fighting is a federal offense, and an official from the United States Department of Agriculture, the federal agency that investigates dogfighting, attended the meeting between Poindexter and the county sheriff's department last week. Earlier Poindexter said "not to rule out" the possibility that federal authorities could play a role in the investigation.
Law enforcement officials are not the only ones attempting to ascertain Vick's involvement. The NFL is "taking this very seriously" according to league spokesman Greg Aiello. NFL security has offered its services to Surry County investigators, and the league has been questioning people with ties to the case.
The dogfighting allegations arise at a time when NFL commissioner Roger Goodell is cracking down on players who run afoul of the law. "I was very clear with Michael," Goodell said after meeting with Vick on April 28. "People living in your house and people on your property [are] your responsibility. He needed to make sure he surrounded himself with people who were going to treat him properly and represent him the way he wanted to be."
Goodell has received letters from Pacelle and from U.S. congressman Tom Lantos (D., Calif.), who urged the commissioner "to act swiftly and forcefully" in the case. In addition the commissioner was compelled to address comments made by Washington Redskins running back Clinton Portis, who excused dogfighting in an interview with Norfolk TV station WAVY. "It's [Vick's] property; it's his dogs. If that's what he wants to do, do it," Portis said. He added that if Vick were convicted of dogfighting, he would be "behind bars for no reason."
Animal control officials call this the "just dogs" mentality. "It's 'just dogs,'" explains Strouse, "so why does it matter?"
"It's unfortunate I have to take the heat," Vick told reporters before the draft. "Lesson learned for me."
Gene Blythe/AP
There are three types of dogfighters. One is the street fighter, who usually owns a single dog and fights it "off the chain" in alleys or vacant lots. Another is the hobbyist, who might own a few dogs, squaring them off against other animals owned by close associates. And then there is the professional, who pays as much as $40,000 for a dog, breeds animals from past champions and and participates in well-organized, high-stakes fights often planned months in advance, with purses of up to $100,000.
In one case investigated by the HSUS, dogfight attendees were told to meet miles from the fight's location. They then had to relinquish their car keys and cellphones before being bused to the fight. Such secrecy explains why police are rarely able to raid live fights. Most busts -- including one in March in southern Ohio involving 64 dogs -- result from investigations of other crimes, typically involving drugs or guns.
One of the few law enforcement officials to penetrate a professional dogfighting ring is Jim Ward, an agent for the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs. The operation he infiltrated involved former NFL running back LeShon Johnson, who pleaded guilty in 2005 to dogfighting in a case in which more than 200 dogs were seized and 20 people convicted. (Johnson received a five-year deferred sentence.) Ward attended two fights, the first a high-stakes match and the second a series of training fights during which 30 to 40 people, including Johnson, were "rolling" dogs -- trying them out to determine if they were "game" enough to fight. Both sets of fights were staged in a greenhouse, in a pit made of hinged plywood so that the walls could be folded down and the carpet rolled up in a moment.
"I was amazed at how all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds went to these fights," Ward, 36, says. "There was a kid there who was eight or nine years old, and there were some teenagers and then older men. But there were also women who had come with their boyfriends, as if on a date."
On the first night of fights, Ward witnessed matches with purses as high as $10,000. The evening was officiated by someone identified as a sanctioned "game dog" referee, who weighed the dogs and ensured they were a good pairing. The dogs were then bathed, a precaution against the practice of putting poison or other substances on a dog's coat to debilitate or repel the opponent. The two dogs were placed in opposite corners of the pit and released simultaneously.
"You know that sound of a dog ripping into meat? That is what you hear, and it is horrible," Ward says. "And a true fighting dog doesn't just bite. It holds on and shakes." Ward considered calling in agents who were performing surveillance to put an end to the carnage. "But I thought if I stayed and we got everyone involved, then maybe we could really put a stop to these people."
During one fight Ward watched as a red brindle female named Star was ripped apart. After her defeat, her owner pulled out a gun and announced he was taking Star outside to kill her. Concerned that his surveillance team would hear the shot and move in, Ward quickly offered to buy the animal. He paid $60.
"I took her to the vet that night, and she needed more than 40 stitches," Ward says. Once home, he found her to be loyal and loving. But in the presence of another animal -- his Labrador retriever or one of his horses -- she attacked. "It's what the dogfighters call 'gameness,' that 'game blood,'" Ward says. "Eventually I had to put her down."
Ward saw firsthand how prominently Johnson, a 1994 draft pick out of Northern Illinois who played five seasons for three NFL teams, figured in the dogfighting world. His Krazyside Kennels had been a well-known and sought-after breeder; his dogs were branded with a "5," which law enforcement officials say may have been a reference to the number of victories a dog needs to be labeled a grand champion. The kennel's most famous dog, Nino, is a legend. In a lengthy testimonial on one breeder's website, riospitbull.com, Nino's exploits are described in a laudatory narrative signed by "Krazyside Kennels." The narrator writes of finding Nino in 1997 and fighting him in North Carolina, Arkansas, Kansas and, finally, New York. In Nino's last match, according to the account, he won a fight that lasted one hour and 48 minutes, despite having his ankle snapped in the first 30 seconds. (Some dogfights last as long as four hours.) "Everyone who doesn't believe this brutal stuff goes on should read that essay," Ward says.
When Johnson was arrested at his apartment in Tulsa in May 2004, agents found a calendar that detailed when he fought and bred his dogs. Fights were listed so far back that investigators believe Johnson fought dogs while still in the NFL. When a law enforcement agent asked Johnson if other football players were into the blood sport, "he avoided answering the question," Ward says. "It was like he was saying there were, but he didn't want to be the one to talk about them."
Johnson is one of a handful of athletes who have faced charges for dogfighting or spoken openly of their links to the practice. Former NBA player Qyntel Woods was accused in 2004 of staging fights at his home outside Portland and pleaded guilty to first-degree animal abuse. Former Dallas Cowboy Nate Newton was arrested at a fight in Texas in 1991. (Charges were later dropped.) Former boxer Gerald McClellan would watch tapes of dogs fighting before his own bouts and admitted putting his dog into fights. And former NFL player Tyrone Wheatley praised the spirit of fighting dogs in SI in 2001. But for all those identified, scores of others go unnamed, according to animal control officials and pro athletes interviewed by SI.
Certainly most athletes who own pit bulls, a breed that's growing in popularity across the U.S., keep them strictly as pets. "People who don't know anything about pit bulls see one and immediately think people are fighting them," says Sean Bailey, a University of Georgia football player with a breeding operation in Alpharetta, Ga. "I breed blue pit bulls, and the 'gameness' dogfighters talk about has been bred out of them."
Still, HSUS officials, who pay for information that leads to a conviction, say they regularly get tips about athletes' participation in dogfights and pass leads on to local law enforcement. Two weeks ago John Goodwin, the HSUS's animal fighting expert, received a tip that a former NBA player ran a fighting ring in Virginia not far from Vick's property. "We hear about athletes all the time," Goodwin says.
"There's a fine line between having a dog as a macho display and having that animal display those characteristics in a fight setting," says Pacelle, the HSUS president. "Athletes get pulled into the subculture. These are competitive people. They are competitive on the football field and on the basketball court, and they get competitive about their dogs."
Or, as the Pro Bowl running back put it, "Sometimes you just want to see how tough a dog you got."
Kathy Strouse will long remember the pit bulls she helped remove from Moonlight Road. Most were short, stocky and ferocious looking, but when she approached them and gave them treats, they were gentle and loving. "Those dogs were so happy, so delighted to have human contact," Strouse says. The animals were split up and sent to shelters around Virginia, the locations undisclosed for fear dogfighters might try to steal them. Eventually the animals will be euthanized. "These dogs can't be adopted," says Strouse. "You don't want dogs like these living next door. The only thought that gives me some comfort is, I would rather have them die while being held by someone who cares about them than in a fighting pit."
She pauses, composes herself and returns to the stack of papers she calls the latest research on the case. "There's so much here, I've barely had time to go through it all," Strouse says, sorting through pages of material she hopes will help reveal the truth of what went on in those blackened buildings on Moonlight Road.
George Dohrmann can be reached at George_Dohrmann@simail.com
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**SuperStar**
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