| TOP DEM LEADER PROCLAIMS: 'WAR IS LOST' - Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4 Next |
| View previous topic
:: View next topic |
dithers
 Posted:
Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:29 pm |
|
|
|
TOP DEM LEADER PROCLAIMS: 'WAR IS LOST'
This is a disgrace. For any American politician to be voicing this sentiment aloud during wartime is outrageous, but for it to be coming from the Leader of the Senate is so out of bounds I can't even think of a proper term. Too bad with all his military expertise that Harry decided to work in the Senate as opposed to the military.
| Quote: | Iraq war is 'lost': US Democrat leader
Apr 19 02:45 PM US/Eastern
The war in Iraq "is lost" and a US troop surge is failing to bring peace to the country, the leader of the Democratic majority in the US Congress, Harry Reid, said Thursday.
"I believe ... that this war is lost, and this surge is not accomplishing anything, as is shown by the extreme violence in Iraq this week," Reid told journalists.
Reid said he had delivered the same message to US President George W. Bush on Wednesday, when the US president met with senior lawmakers to discuss how to end a standoff over an emergency war funding bill.
"I know I was the odd guy out at the White House, but I told him at least what he needed to hear ... I believe the war at this stage can only be won diplomatically, politically and economically."
Congress is seeking to tie funding for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to a timetable to withdraw US troops from Iraq next year, but Bush has vowed to veto any such bill and no breakthrough was reported from the White House talks.
Bush on Thursday was addressing an Ohio town hall meeting and defending the war on terror launched in the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks.
"It is the most solemn duty of our country, is to protect our country from harm," Bush told the invited audience in Tipp, Ohio.
"A lesson learned was that -- at least in my opinion -- that in order to protect us, we must aggressively pursue the enemy and defeat them elsewhere so that we do not have to face them here."
But Reid drew a parallel with former US president Lyndon Johnson who decided to deploy more troops in Vietnam some 40 years ago when 24,000 US troops had already been killed.
"Johnson did not want a war loss on his watch, so he surged in Vietnam. After the surge was over, we added 34,000 to the 24,000 who died in Vietnam," Reid said.
The comments came a day after bombers killed more than 200 people in a slew of car bombings in Baghdad, dealing a savage blow to the US security plan which aims to deploy an extra 30,000 troops in the country to quell sectarian unrest.
US Defense Secretary Robert Gates fly into Iraq Thursday on an unannounced visit for talks with top US military commanders there.
He met with General David Petraeus, chief of coalition forces in Iraq, his deputy Lieutenant Colonel Ray Odierno and Admiral William Fallon, chief of US forces in the Middle East.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070419184534.ileoeb47&show_article=1
|
|
|
Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 3468
|
|
|
 |
 |
 |
|
| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:50 pm |
|
|
|
Dithers, the politicians are speaking realistically. Why does that offend you so deeply? Should no one stand up for what they believe?
This war should never have been started. It was unfortunately, and now it is time to end it.
I had hopes that the Iraqi people could handle a more democratic government, and those hopes were buoyed by the voter turnout, however, it has been downhill ever since.
Democracy cannot be exported. Time to assess the damage and get out of there. America cannot hold a country together that does not want to be held together. It has been in a state of civil war for the past 18 months but few people dared to utter the words.
|
|
YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 7020
Location: France
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| dithers
Posted:
Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:11 pm |
|
|
|
Yif, it offends me because we still have soldiers in Iraq fighting the battle as if it is one to be won. Imagine any situation in life where you were fighting to win something and your father or uncle or someone stepped up and announced to one and all that you were a loser - even in the midst of the fight.
Whether or not the war was right or whether or not we are winning or losing, for an elected leader to express this to the world while troops are still in the field is IMO deplorable.What with the Imus and VA Tech disasters we have been hearing much on civil public discourse and so much other stuff regarding responsibility, etc. of what we say. Harry Reid's saying these things publicly made no difference with anything that is happening in Washington. But it sure makes a difference as to the morale of the troops and the way we are viewed by the enemy.
Whether or not this war was to officially end tomorrow - today, at this very moment, there are young soldiers in harm's way. How are they to feel over a remark such as this? Should they simply lay down their arms and give up the fight? How would you feel if your son was over in Iraq and to hear this kind of remark? I think it's a slap in the face. So much for we support the troops.
|
|
Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 3468
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:21 pm |
|
|
|
Dithers, I hear what you are saying about our troops still being there, but it has to end. It won't end unless and until someone stops it. It is time for it to end and bring back the troops.
|
|
YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 7020
Location: France
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| dithers
Posted:
Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:40 pm |
|
|
|
Yif, it's also offensive because his remarks are simply what he believes. Not a consensus all around or even from the military commanders in charge.
Shouldn't a declaration of defeat such as this be Gen. Petraeus's call? And at any rate, who ever admits defeat in the middle of a fight. Like I said in my previous post, whether or not it ends and whether or not it was right or wrong - for someone like Harry Reid to say this on his own while troops are still engaged in the field is breathtaking - to say the least. He is TOTALLY out of line.
Contrary to what Reid alleges I've heard reports that the surge IS working. Likening the recent spate in violence to defeat is like saying the killings at VA Tech show we've lost the war on violence at home.
|
|
Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 3468
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| pax
Posted:
Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:16 pm |
|
|
|
We'll never cut our losses without first expressing our opinions.
People who opposed the war from day one have been told over and over 'now is not the right time to be saying those things.' Bullshit. I love the Unites States, I love our soldiers, and I want this war to end as quickly and safely as possible.
|
|
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 16350
Location: Wish You Were Here
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| kat
Posted:
Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:58 pm |
|
|
|
dithers, ITA with everything you have posted. It is very demoralizing to the troops to hear this kind of crap. Reid and all the others that are demanding we claim defeat and "cut and run" need to look at the long term repercussions of such a move.
|
|
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 1996
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| dithers
Posted:
Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:23 am |
|
|
|
| pax wrote: | We'll never cut our losses without first expressing our opinions.
People who opposed the war from day one have been told over and over 'now is not the right time to be saying those things.' Bullshit. I love the Unites States, I love our soldiers, and I want this war to end as quickly and safely as possible. |
Well, who doesn't want it to end quickly and safely? I get ticked off with those who are so dead set against this war acting as if those who see it from a different perspective are somehow not as humane and caring. Like we enjoy seeing people killed and maimed and a country in turmoil.
The violence isn't going to go away after we leave. Guess the innocent men, women and children who have to put up with it without help from the U.S. will just be SOL. I don't know how anyone can feel good about leaving under those circumstances.
Since the Imus thing people have been discussing the need to tone down the rhetoric. ie. just because you have a right to say something doesn't make it right to go ahead and say it.
I liken Harry Reid's declaration to a lay person coming out of an operating room and stating the patient is dead. Never mind the surgeons are still working on the patient and we've yet to hear the final prognosis from their medically-educated lips.
Or a coach coming to the microphone during the final minutes of a basketball game and declaring "We've lost."
If Harry Reid couldn't keep his partisan yap shut he could have at least couched his words by saying something more like - "We were successful in freeing the Iraqi's, getting rid of Saddam Hussein and assuring he had no weapons of mass destruction. A fledgling democracy has been established and it is now time for us to let the Iraqi's take it from here."
Still says the same thing but says it without making his country look like a big fat loser. Why would anyone who loves their country want to make it look like a big fat loser? Circle the wagons and put the best face on it that you can.
Our efforts in Iraq have not been futile or a total loss. We achieved much that is good. And many young men and women paid with their lives for those achievements. By not acknowledging all that was won but instead focusing on losing he pretty much kicked all of them and all the others still there right in the teeth.
But then, that would deprive him of the chance to stick it to Bush, which is really what it's all about. Politics and perceived political advantage.
Words such as those Harry Reid speaks do not inspire. And just like that basketball team, people need to be inspired. Can you imagine working at a company where the executives were always crying doom and gloom. Wouldn't be a very pleasant place to work that's for sure.
I believe these tactics of attempting to make this country look weak and beaten will come back to bite old Harry and the Dems big time in the backside.
|
|
Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 3468
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:03 am |
|
|
|
No one is saying that the people waging the war are inhumane or uncaring. This war was ill-fated from the beginning and is apparently unwinnable now for many reasons.
The innocent Iraqi men, women, and children have not had a day of peace since the US invaded their country. Have they enjoyed security and peace with our help? I don't think so. Yes, we topped Saddam Hussein. That is all we have accomplished. Iraq is in a state of civil war which was never considered. Why not? Did someone not do their homework?
The Imus thing has nothing to do with stating an opinion based on facts at your disposal that the situation in Iraq has deteriorated to the point where it is unwinnable. The day that a US senator is not free to make a statement such as Senator Reid did will be an even sadder day for America. IMO.
Why should Senator Reid say what you want said? Fledgling democracy, where is that? They kill off their own congress, and that is considered a fledgling democracy. Again, democracy cannot be exported.
The American people are not losers. This administration made unwise decisions, one of which was to wage this war. It was wrong when it was started, and it is still wrong.
What have we achieved, Dithers, other than the toppling of Saddam Hussein? I suggest to you that sending our troops into battle with improper armor or furnishing them with inadequate vehicles is worse than a kick in the teeth.
Private enterprise or American sport teams do not tolerate incompetency. Unfortunately, the American electorate has no remedy except to hope that the next two years will not be as futile as the last six years.
|
|
YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 7020
Location: France
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| dithers
Posted:
Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:09 pm |
|
|
|
Again, Yif, your argument is all based on how you feel about this war. Just because you and Harry Reid and others feels that way does not make it so.
Harry Reid has to be able to admit that he could be wrong. Just as he expects others on the other side to admit they are wrong. And with it being a possibility that he is wrong it makes his statement outrageous.
|
|
Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 3468
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:24 pm |
|
|
|
| dithers wrote: | Again, Yif, your argument is all based on how you feel about this war. Just because you and Harry Reid and others feels that way does not make it so.
Harry Reid has to be able to admit that he could be wrong. Just as he expects others on the other side to admit they are wrong. And with it being a possibility that he is wrong it makes his statement outrageous. |
Yes, he could be wrong, but he could be right. How would you like the war effort handled? Continue to pour our armed forces into Iraq, continue fighting sectarian violence and watching it increase, watching the Iraqis continue to disagree with each other with the only agreement being that they don't like the US, continue with Halliburton contracts, continue the fundings and for long would we do that? Long enough so that GWB is out of office and leave the mess for the next president to clean up, now isn't that nice? And once he is out of power, would it then be OK to utter the words "civil war" and unwinnable position for the US?
|
|
YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 7020
Location: France
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| apodixis
Posted:
Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:24 pm |
|
|
|
Three prominent retired four-star generals: retired Gen. Jack Keane, former Army vice chief of staff retired Air Force Gen. Joseph Ralston, former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; and retired Marine Gen. John Sheehan, former NATO commander; have been asked if they'd be interested in the job of “czar” to oversee the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan —and all of them said no.
Gen. Sheehan, the only one who talked on the record with the Washington Post reportedly said . "I've never agreed on the basis of the war, and I'm still skeptical," "Not only did we not plan properly for the war, we grossly underestimated the effect of sanctions and Saddam Hussein on the Iraqi people." "There's the residue of the Cheney view -- 'We're going to win, al-Qaeda's there' -- that justifies anything we did," he said. "And then there's the pragmatist view -- how the hell do we get out of Dodge and survive? Unfortunately, the people with the former view are still in the positions of most influence."
"The very fundamental issue," Sheehan said, referring to Bush and his aides, "is they don't know where the hell they're going."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/10/AR2007041001776_pf.html
|
|
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 3296
Location: State of Jefferson, Ecotopia
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:26 pm |
|
|
|
Hi, Appy, long time no see, missed you. 
|
|
YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 7020
Location: France
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| dithers
Posted:
Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:09 pm |
|
|
|
Look, we could go back and forth forever arguing which side is right and listing big names who firmly believe one way or the other.
That was not my point. My point is that it is unconscionable for a leading politician of this country to say what Harry Reid did while there are troops in the field still fighting this war. I don't care how he feels about it. It is just plain wrong.
I just heard that his statement is the headline on AlJazeera.
|
|
Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 3468
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:28 pm |
|
|
|
| dithers wrote: | Look, we could go back and forth forever arguing which side is right and listing big names who firmly believe one way or the other.
That was not my point. My point is that it is unconscionable for a leading politician of this country to say what Harry Reid did while there are troops in the field still fighting this war. I don't care how he feels about it. It is just plain wrong.
I just heard that his statement is the headline on AlJazeera. |
I'm glad that it is on AlJazeera, because it may be time for the Arab nations to step up to the plate and take over responsibility here. They allowed their brothers and sisters in Iraq to be murdered by Saddam Hussein, closed their eyes, and did nothing. Now, they whine about the coalition forces on Muslim soil, so it is good that the Arab people learn that Americans want their armed forces home.
|
|
YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 7020
Location: France
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| resigned
Posted:
Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:57 pm |
|
|
|
You keep me in stitches, dithers.
I'm surprised you aren't still supporting the Vietnam War.
|
|
Click your heels together...
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 28627
Location: "Onboard" pathenry's desk
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| dithers
Posted:
Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:17 pm |
|
|
|
| resigned wrote: | You keep me in stitches, dithers.
I'm surprised you aren't still supporting the Vietnam War. |
I'm glad someone finds me amusing. Lately here all I hear is how ignorant I am. I might be alot of things, but I draw the line when it comes to ignorant.
I never did support the Vietnam War. Still don't.
And that wasn't my purpose here. If Iraq was Bill Clinton's war and Newt had said what Harry Reid did, I'd feel the same way. PO'd.
|
|
Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 3468
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:33 pm |
|
|
|
| dithers wrote: | | resigned wrote: | You keep me in stitches, dithers.
I'm surprised you aren't still supporting the Vietnam War. |
I'm glad someone finds me amusing. Lately here all I hear is how ignorant I am. I might be alot of things, but I draw the line when it comes to ignorant.
I never did support the Vietnam War. Still don't.
And that wasn't my purpose here. If Iraq was Bill Clinton's war and Newt had said what Harry Reid did, I'd feel the same way. PO'd. |
When Clinton wanted to go after Bin Ladin in '98, the Repubs accused him of 'wagging the dog', remember?
|
|
YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 7020
Location: France
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| dithers
Posted:
Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:41 pm |
|
|
|
| yankee-in-france wrote: | | dithers wrote: | | resigned wrote: | You keep me in stitches, dithers.
I'm surprised you aren't still supporting the Vietnam War. |
I'm glad someone finds me amusing. Lately here all I hear is how ignorant I am. I might be alot of things, but I draw the line when it comes to ignorant.
I never did support the Vietnam War. Still don't.
And that wasn't my purpose here. If Iraq was Bill Clinton's war and Newt had said what Harry Reid did, I'd feel the same way. PO'd. |
When Clinton wanted to go after Bin Ladin in '98, the Repubs accused him of 'wagging the dog', remember? |
Big difference in that and calling a war lost when soldiers are still in the field and fighting that war.
|
|
Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 3468
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| dithers
Posted:
Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:45 pm |
|
|
|
Even if it was the same - two wrongs don't make a right.
|
|
Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 3468
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Need2Know
Posted:
Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:54 pm |
|
|
|
From my perspective and I think I have an inkling of a clue on this, some people place too much emphasis on what "our soldiers think". I know some of the commanders who are still in the service and they are disgusted with how this war has been handled, they just can't say that on the record. This has been a failure from the very beginning and those who want to claim it is "unpatriotic" for ANYBODY to step up and criticize this administration and it's pathetic planning is wrong in my opinion. To those who think they are speaking for the soldiers and their families, stop doing that since you would be very surprised as to how some/most of them really feel about all of this. Let's not even being to talk about how they are treated when they return to their civilian lives and the many hurdles they have to jump through - just look at the travesty at Walter Reed Medical Hospital.
|
|
N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 9308
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| dithers
Posted:
Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:05 pm |
|
|
|
| Need2Know wrote: | | From my perspective and I think I have an inkling of a clue on this, some people place too much emphasis on what "our soldiers think". I know some of the commanders who are still in the service and they are disgusted with how this war has been handled, they just can't say that on the record. This has been a failure from the very beginning and those who want to claim it is "unpatriotic" for ANYBODY to step up and criticize this administration and it's pathetic planning is wrong in my opinion. To those who think they are speaking for the soldiers and their families, stop doing that since you would be very surprised as to how some/most of them really feel about all of this. Let's not even being to talk about how they are treated when they return to their civilian lives and the many hurdles they have to jump through - just look at the travesty at Walter Reed Medical Hospital. |
Again, I guess I'm just not making my point here. I don't care who started the damn war and for reasons flawed or otherwise.
If you think every other war in history has been run smooth as pie and for all the best of reasons then you are greatly mistaken. One of the big problems today is we see everything that goes on and we see it in real time.
I REPEAT - Harry Reid is disparaging his country. That is what I have a problem with. Do you really think at this point that his dissing the President would get me upset?. It's an hourly occurrence. And again, your assessment is just that - your assessment. Doesn't make you right and doesn't make you wrong. Same with Reid. So if there's a 50/50 chance he might be wrong then he should tone it down.
Why do everyone's rebuttals to me here have to be seen through the prism of Bush, or the reasons we went to war or the way it's been run.
As I said earlier we could all go on listing anecdotal evidence of things we've read or heard from individual military personnel and others giving totally divergent opinions. That gets us nowhere.
Everything in life is sales. And Harry Reid's sales pitch wouldn't make it in my book. A good salesman sells with the positive and not the negative. He could have said the exact same thing but in a more positive way as I pointed out above. He could have made a statement that ALL AMERICANS would feel comfortable standing behind - not just those who feel as he does.
As with abortion and religion - it is obvious we are never going to see eye to eye here and so any further discussion is fruitless. If we were all standing around the big island in my kitchen as we always wind up doing with our guests - this is where we would change the subject and find another topic to discuss. (Believe me with two sisters-in-law who are San Francisco ultra-liberals it happens quite often).
Can I get anyone another beer or refill your glass?
|
|
Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 3468
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| pax
Posted:
Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:25 pm |
|
|
|
| Need2Know wrote: | | From my perspective and I think I have an inkling of a clue on this, some people place too much emphasis on what "our soldiers think". I know some of the commanders who are still in the service and they are disgusted with how this war has been handled, they just can't say that on the record. This has been a failure from the very beginning and those who want to claim it is "unpatriotic" for ANYBODY to step up and criticize this administration and it's pathetic planning is wrong in my opinion. To those who think they are speaking for the soldiers and their families, stop doing that since you would be very surprised as to how some/most of them really feel about all of this. Let's not even being to talk about how they are treated when they return to their civilian lives and the many hurdles they have to jump through - just look at the travesty at Walter Reed Medical Hospital. |
Thank you for your perspective, N2K. Soldiers are different unique individuals. My guess is that some oppose what Reid said and others might applaud it. Regardless, I have the utmost respect for each and every one of them.
|
|
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 16350
Location: Wish You Were Here
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Need2Know
Posted:
Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:12 pm |
|
|
|
I just have a real problem with politicians who never stepped foot outside their lillie white gardens trying to play general from their lofty little offices. Too many men have lost their lives because of politics and it seems to be happening all over again. I have some real issues with how all of this went down. I think you will find that any soldier will gladly give it up if they know that what they are fighting for is not some bullshit campaign brought upon our nation by an overzealous president who has no shadow of a clue of what it really takes to fight and win a war. This entire debacle and what our fine soldiers are being put through disgusts me to no end, but I also take issue with some people who think they know what we and our families go through. If you are not one of us, you really do not know. This war's only casualties has been the innocent civilians and the dead and wounded American soldiers who once again have taken on a task that was improperly planned and executed. It is travesty to have the military go through something like this. If you are going to send men and women into harms way, for God's sake, do it right and give them all the tools to get the job done right, quickly and as effectively as possible. I have lost all respect for this administration.
|
|
N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 9308
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| pax
Posted:
Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:38 pm |
|
|
|
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X90T5sY5c2o
|
|
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 16350
Location: Wish You Were Here
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
