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| The True, Peaceful Face Of Islam, not radical extremism. - Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 |
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K Hemingway
 Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:51 am |
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| Need2Know wrote: |
Is this not in their "holy book?" Do they only take bits and pieces of it as their beliefs or do you want to believe only what suits your understanding of this?
Kill unbelievers wherever they find them (Qur'an 2:191); murder them and treat them harshly (Qur'an 9:123); fight them (Qur'an 8:65) until no other religion than Islam is left (Qur'an 2:193); humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax if they are Christians or Jews (Qur'an 9:29); slay them if they are pagans (unbelievers) (Qur'an 9:5); crucify, or cut off their hands and feet, and expel them from the land in disgrace. Then there are these: Muslims are told that unbelievers "shall have a great punishment in world hereafter" (Qur'an 5:34); not to befriend their own fathers or brothers if they are not believers (Qur'an 3:28, 9:23); to kill their own family in the battles of Badr and Uhud, and to "strive against the unbelievers with great endeavor" (Qur'an 25:52); and be stern with them because they belong to hell (Qur'an 47:4). This Allah says all those who do not believe will go to hell (Qur'an 5:11). And the sadism gets worse: "As for the unbelievers, for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Qur'an 22:9)
What is unclear about this? This is what they consume, day in and day out. The entire Islamic/Muslim community follows the Qur'an, does it not? You see how taking the parts that are not offensive takes away from the whole? Where is the condemnation from ALL Arab nations if this is not what they believe? Come on now, let's get real here. |
It's taken out of context...you have to read it in context...AND NOT start at 002.191...and you have to put it in context of what was happening at the time in their land...and when they are allowed to fight, and WHO the transgressors ARE.
There is a coversation going on in 002.191 between YUSUFALI, PICKTHAL, and SHAKIR
002.190
YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
002.192
YUSUFALI: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:56 am |
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| pax wrote: | | N2K, what's your interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount? To me it means help the poor and sick, judge not lest ye be judged, blessed are the peacemakers, and don't bear false witness. To me, it's the core spirit of Jesus' teachings, which are not owned by a political party. JMO. |
Political parties aside 
You asked, let me respond. Jesus is all about bringing ALL PEOPLE to the awesomeness of His love, His truth, that He is the Savior of the world and that without Him, there will be eternal seperation from God the Father, The Creator. He said go out unto ALL THE WORLD and make disciples, and go out into all the world they did. Jesus is God, the Son.
Does any other world religion have a "prophet" that was foretold thousands of years before He was born, how he would be born, how He would die and that He would rise again from the dead, which He did, among many, many other fulfilled prophesies? Has any other person in the history of the world died an excruciating death for YOU and your sins so that we ALL could come to God through that sacrifice because he died and took our punishment upon Himself?
His story is a love story written in blood on a wooden cross that was erected in Judea about two thousand years ago. His crucifixion wasn't a tragedy; it was an achievement.
Announced in advance in the Garden of Eden at the dawn of history, He made His human debut in a manger in Bethlehem, paid a cosmic price on our behalf at the Cross, and now appears ready to finalize His climax of all human history on our near horizon.
In the Biblical record, every detail, every place, name, every number, has been skillfully tailored by deliberate design.
If you don't believe this, you are going against the very will of God for you and your life; if you do believe that, what does that do for you and your life? For many, including me, it was and continues to be life changing.
Some deny that He claimed to be God. But anyone who is unaware of His claims hasn't read the Bible. His claim to be God was the very reason that they crucified Him. The issue is, were His claims valid? Our individual destinies will hinge on that issue.
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8941
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:01 pm |
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| yankee-in-france wrote: | So what are you saying, that all Muslims are the scum of the earth? Don't try to understand their culture, just denounce them all and pat yourself on the back.  |
I am quoting what is in their holy book. I am not claiming anything.
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N2K
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:04 pm |
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| Katie wrote: |
FDLS has nothing on these: Army of God, The Lambs of Christ, Aryan Nations~ Church of Jesus Christ-Christian, Christian Patriots, Ku Klux Klan are proponents of a fundamentalist Christian theology strongly influenced by Christian Reconstructionism, those are just but a few. |
Those groups are hate-filled terrorists who use and profane the name of God for their own sick and ungodly beliefs. They are just as bad and even worse then the extreme Muslims because they use the name of Christ for their "cause." "Influenced" by who? They are not influenced by Jesus Christ, that is for sure.
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8941
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| K Hemingway
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:04 pm |
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| Need2Know wrote: |
I am quoting what is in their holy book. I am not claiming anything. |
But IMO, it's misleading, the way it was quoted.
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:05 pm |
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| K Hemingway wrote: |
But IMO, it's misleading, the way it was quoted. |
It is IN the Koran, why is that misleading?
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8941
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| K Hemingway
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:08 pm |
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| Need2Know wrote: |
It is IN the Koran, why is that misleading? |
It's taken out of context...you have to read it in context...AND NOT start at 002.191...and you have to put it in context of what was happening at the time in their land...and when they are allowed to fight, and WHO the transgressors ARE.
There is a coversation going on in 002.191 between YUSUFALI, PICKTHAL, and SHAKIR
Wanna talk about justifying all the bloodshed of the Crusades? 
J/k
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:23 pm |
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| K Hemingway wrote: |
It's taken out of context...you have to read it in context...AND NOT start at 002.191...and you have to put it in context of what was happening at the time in their land...and when they are allowed to fight, and WHO the transgressors ARE.
There is a coversation going on in 002.191 between YUSUFALI, PICKTHAL, and SHAKIR |
Oh, I see  Context makes little difference since it is STILL in there, but okay, think what you will. You think they keep it in context or take it literally?
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8941
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| K Hemingway
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:44 pm |
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| Need2Know wrote: |
Oh, I see Context makes little difference since it is STILL in there, but okay, think what you will. You think they keep it in context or take it literally? |
I think Al Qaeda takes it out of context.
I think the extremists take it out of context.
But the majority of Muslims are not extremists.
Quoting those texts out of context no more represents the teachings and message of Muhammad...through the Qo'ran and HOW HE LIVED his life...
Than THIS represents the teachings and message of Jesus.
Luke 19:26-27
"I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-bring them here and kill them in front of me."
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:48 pm |
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| K Hemingway wrote: |
I think Al Qaeda takes it out of context.
I think the extremists take it out of context.
But the majority of Muslims are not extremists.
Quoting those texts out of context no more represents the teachings and message of Muhammad...through the Qo'ran and HOW HE LIVED his life...
Than THIS represents the teachings and message of Jesus.
Luke 19:26-27
"I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-bring them here and kill them in front of me." |
Are you comparing the two?
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8941
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| K Hemingway
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:51 pm |
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| Need2Know wrote: |
Are you comparing the two? |
I'm comparing them in that they both...taken out of context, don't represent the teachings, lives, and message of Muhammad or Jesus.
I understand the story in Luke...is a parable about a King...but taken out of context...it doesn't relay the whole parable.
See what I mean?
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:03 pm |
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| K Hemingway wrote: |
I'm comparing them in that they both...taken out of context, don't represent the teachings, lives, and message of Muhammad or Jesus.
I understand the story in Luke...is a parable about a King...but taken out of context...it doesn't relay the whole parable.
See what I mean? |
In a way, but let's see just who Mohammad really was. When he first started screaming from the rooftops that he alone had the divine word of God, the people of Mecca ignored him. However, when he started insulting and defaming the religion of the peace loving Meccans, they couldn't take it anymore and tried persuading him to stop. Mohammad was too scared of the growing hostility against him and instead of calling upon his Allah to strike down the Meccans, he crept out one night and fled for his life.
Ever since that incident, Mohammad was determined to take revenge on the Meccans. He escaped to Medinah, which had a sizeable Jewish population, and started plotting his revenge with a small gang of criminals. This was the beginning of Mohammad's trail of violence, hatred and bloodshed that would soon destroy the culture of Persia, Egyptian. The story has been documented in detail by his biographers, - surprise raids on trade caravans and tribal settlements, the use of plunder thus obtained for recruiting an ever growing army of greedy desperados, assassinations of opponents, blackmail, expulsion and massacre of the Jews of Medinah, attack and enslavement of the Jews of Khayber, rape of women and children, sale of these victims after rape, trickery, treachery and bribery employed to their fullest extent to grow the numbers of his religion Islam which ironically was supposed to mean "Peace"! He organised no less than 86 expeditions, 26 of which he led himself.
The motives of the converts to Islam was never in any doubt. Of any moralising or demoralising effect that Mohammad's teaching had upon his followers we cannot say with precision. When he was at the head of the Robber community, it is probable that the demoralising influence began to be felt; it was then that men who had never broken an oath learnt that they might evade their obligations, and that men to whom the blood of their clan had been as their own, began to shed it with impunity in the "cause of god". And that lying and treachery in the cause of Islam received divine approval. It was then too that Muslims became distinguished by the obscenity of their language. It was then too, that the coveting of goods and wives possessed by Non-Muslims was avowed without discouragement from the Prophet.
The details of all his criminal onslaughts in the form of battles and assasinations are well chronicled . One should note that everytime the "Apostle of Peace" committed one of his criminal onslaughts, he always justified the crimes by quickly claiming a "divine revelation" which conveniently removed the blame from his bloodied hands.
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8941
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| K Hemingway
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:16 pm |
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Christians have committed violence in the name of Christianity.
During the crusades, it was customary for them to claim they were ‘taking up their cross’ echoing Jesus in Mathew 16;24-25
‘Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.’
But it actually says nothing about war and violence, and the message meant to conform one’s life to the demands of the Gospel.
So the Crusaders took purely spiritual passages and applied them to warfare.
---
The difference of Islam is...unlike Jesus, Muhammad was religious AND ALSO a military leader and political figure.
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:23 pm |
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| K Hemingway wrote: | Christians have committed violence in the name of Christianity.
During the crusades, it was customary for them to claim they were ‘taking up their cross’ echoing Jesus in Mathew 16;24-25
‘Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.’
But it actually says nothing about war and violence, and the message meant to conform one’s life to the demands of the Gospel.
So the Crusaders took purely spiritual passages and applied them to warfare.
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The difference of Islam is...unlike Jesus, Muhammad was religious AND ALSO a military leader and political figure. |
Those were NOT Christians, no matter what they called themselves. The crusades were a perversion as well and any act committed in the name of Christ for evil, self gain, or any other self fulfilling atrocity is an abomination and has no place in anything that has anything to do with true Chrisitanity. I think you understand what I am getting at. You started this thread saying Islam and Mohammad were/are all about peace when that is VERY FAR from the truth and anybody who does valid research on their own will find that to be the case. You cannot mix and mingle idealogies and texts, you have to look at it as a whole and see WHO Mohammad really was; the founder of this very religion.
Last edited by Need2Know on Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8941
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:26 pm |
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| K Hemingway wrote: | Christians have committed violence in the name of Christianity.
During the crusades, it was customary for them to claim they were ‘taking up their cross’ echoing Jesus in Mathew 16;24-25
‘Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.’
But it actually says nothing about war and violence, and the message meant to conform one’s life to the demands of the Gospel.
So the Crusaders took purely spiritual passages and applied them to warfare.
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The difference of Islam is...unlike Jesus, Muhammad was religious AND ALSO a military leader and political figure. |
Jesus was not "religious", He is God who took human form for us, for our salvation. He is God the Son and He is above all others.
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8941
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| K Hemingway
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:26 pm |
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I agree with you.
And many Muslims would say al Qaeda, and the radical extremists, are a perversion of ISLAM...
That's my point. 
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:29 pm |
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| K Hemingway wrote: | I agree with you.
And many Muslims would say al Qaeda, and the radical extremists, are a perversion of ISLAM...
That's my point. |
Have we come full circle? I agree that not all Muslims are violent, but the point is their holy book promotes violence, not peace and their "leader" was anything BUT God inspired, he surely was not inspired by the True God. That's my point
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8941
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| K Hemingway
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:32 pm |
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| Need2Know wrote: |
Jesus was not "religious", He is God who took human form for us, for our salvation. He is God the Son and He is above all others. |
I'm talking about what was going on historically, geo-politically...in central Arabia.
From the point of view of religion, Arabia was idolatrous; only a few individuals had embraced religions like Christianity, Mazdaism, etc. The Meccans did possess the notion of the One God, but they believed also that idols had the power to intercede with Him. Curiously enough, they did not believe in the Resurrection and Afterlife. They had preserved the rite of the pilgrimage to the House of the One God, the Ka'bah, an institution set up under divine inspiration by their ancestor Abraham, yet the two thousand years that separated them from Abraham had caused to degenerate this pilgrimage into the spectacle of a commercial fair and an occasion of senseless idolatry which far from producing any good, only served to ruin their individual behaviour, both social and spiritual.
I'm not debating theology. 
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:37 pm |
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Okey Dokes 
How are your candles by the way?
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8941
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| K Hemingway
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:38 pm |
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It was actually Muhammad who stopped the practice of paganism in Mecca.
Not much is known about the religious practices of Muhammad until he was thirty-five years old, except that he had never worshipped idols. This is substantiated by all his biographers.
It may be stated that there were a few others in Mecca, who had likewise revolted against the senseless practice of paganism, although conserving their fidelity to the Ka'bah as the house dedicated to the One God by its builder Abraham.
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| K Hemingway
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:41 pm |
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| Need2Know wrote: | Okey Dokes
How are your candles by the way? |
They are GREAT!!! I have a new line...poured directly into bamboo.
Don't have them on my website yet, but they look like this,
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:44 pm |
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Nice
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8941
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